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We discuss the intricacies of Backdoor Roth IRAs, a popular strategy for high earners to contribute to Roth IRAs despite income limits.
We explore the mechanics of the Backdoor Roth and the Mega Backdoor Roth, including eligibility, contribution limits, and tax implications.
We also cover the importance of understanding 401k options, the pro rata rule, and key considerations for executing a Backdoor Roth conversion effectively.
We address work visa considerations when looking to complete a back-door role or a direct contribution.
We help you think through whether this is for you or not based on your work visa, your country of origin, and where you are likely to be when you finally withdraw the money.
We finally address the biggest mistakes we see when people DIY backdoor roth and the tax preparation that comes after that.
Episode Links & Resources
Are you Tax-compliant With Your Overseas Assets? - Free Guide - Scroll to the bottom of the page.
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The speakers' views and opinions discussed in this episode should not be considered financial, tax, or legal advice. Consult your advisor for any legal, cross-border tax, and financial advice.
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Jane Mepham, CFP® (00:03.862)
We are back with another, what I think is going to be a pretty cool episode. So Manasa and I have been talking a lot about Backdoor Roth's and what has happened is Manasa has been collecting a bunch of questions that her clients are asking, kind of things we are seeing online.
So in today's episode, we're just going to attempt to answer some of Manasa's questions on a backdoor roth.
What it is. Well, we'll see what questions she asks and we go from there. Manasa how does that sound?
Manasa Nadig, EA (00:37.924)
Absolutely amazing, because I love to ask you questions. All right. So like you already said, this is a popular strategy for high earners. And there's a lot written out there in the internet universe on backdoor Roths So now people come back to us wanting to know whether this is a good strategy for them in order to be able to do this.
Manasa Nadig, EA (01:07.22)
Who would you think would qualify for a backdoor Roth IRA? And why do you think this is a popular strategy, Jane?
Jane Mepham, CFP® (01:25.216)
Okay, no, that's a fantastic question. with a typical Roth IRA, you're able to make a direct contribution if your modified adjusted gross income is 150K in 2025 or 236K if married filing jointly. Once you go over that number, the IRS code does not allow you to make a Roth contribution.
So this strategy, the backdoor Roth has sort of come in and even though it backdoor sounds kind of weird, it is legal that allows you to still be able to make a Roth contribution despite your high income. And of course the whole reason why you want a Roth or why people want a Roth IRA is because we know the money grows tax free. And once you get to retirement age,
This is one account where RMDs are not required. RMDs are required minimum distribution because when you do traditional retirement accounts, so we're thinking, let's say IRAs 401ks, at some point, because the account grows tax deferred, IRS comes in and says, hey, we want to get our share of this.
They want to get their taxes, which forces you to start taking out some of that money, hence the required minimum distribution. Does that answer your question, Manasa?
Manasa Nadig, EA (02:59.772)
A bit, yes, but if you can maybe share a quick example of who you would think would be an ideal candidate for a backdoor Roth
Jane Mepham, CFP® (03:15.828)
Okay, absolutely. So let's talk about, we'll use John. John has a great income. His family is making, let's say about four or 500,000 per year, right? They are not allowed by tax code to be able to do a Roth contribution. John and his wife, we're assuming this is a married couple, they've been contributing
to their 401ks and they've actually maxed them out. They've already contributed to their kids 529. They have some good amount of money in taxable account. They have no debt and they really want to save more for retirement. Now at their income level, when I've looked at, let's say their 401ks and their IRAs, they have a pretty high balance.
which tells me at retirement time, the required minimum distributions are going to be pretty high, which means they are likely going to be in a pretty high tax bracket. So in this case, to help them start growing some money or start accumulating so many in tax free growth, I would help them do the backdoor roth just like I described. Does that make sense?
Manasa Nadig, EA (04:41.22)
Absolutely, yes. So now that we have an ideal candidate who you would select for a backdoor Roth. So now I have maybe a different candidate who comes and says, hey, I've heard of backdoor Roths, but what is this mega backdoor Roth? And how do I find out if I qualify for that? So.
Manasa Nadig, EA (05:11.54)
Would you be able to help us out with that, Jane?
Jane Mepham, CFP® (05:15.582)
Yes. So I love the name Mega Back Door Roth. So what has happened once, of course, all these things have to be allowed by IRS. Some companies will allow their employees to contribute extra to their retirement accounts. Again, it has to be allowed by the company. let's say company, you know, like,
Manasa Nadig, EA (05:21.977)
Yeah.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (05:44.952)
Maybe I won't use specific company names. Let's say XYZ company has created this option in the retirement account. So the way it works is you max out your, let's say your 401k contribution, which is around 23, 500 this year.
And then you can do what's called an after tax contribution into the same account.
Obviously they're going to separate the buckets. Now where this works and where the magic happens is where as you contribute your after-tax contributions, they go immediately and convert these to a rock, right? Which is fantastic when you think about it. Now, if your company is not doing the conversion immediately, we might want to
talk about that a little bit, but really for it to make sense, you make the contribution and immediately this gets converted to a Roth Hence the mega back door Roth. And the reason for the word mega cause I was looking at the numbers and I think this year you could potentially go up to 70 K of retirement contributions using this strategy. Does that.
explain how the Mega Back Door Roth works and why it's such a great tool if you have access to it and if it makes sense for your situation.
Manasa Nadig, EA (07:17.08)
Definitely, Jane. And while we're talking about mega backdoor Roth conversions, I think it's also important to include here that this will be a taxable event. So in case if that is your plan, it is important to keep money aside to pay for taxes, right?
Jane Mepham, CFP® (07:39.672)
Right. But actually when you do the mega backdoor Roth, remember you're using after tax money, right? So as, yeah, so as long as, so this is, you've already done the pre-tax, which is the 401k, and then you take your after tax money and you put it into this, as long as the company allows you to do the conversion immediately, you don't have to worry about taxes.
Manasa Nadig, EA (07:48.994)
I see.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (08:09.224)
ever. And this is why it's such a popular theme. And like I said, it's not all companies that are willing to offer it, but if your company offers it, it's definitely worth having a conversation. Part of it is there's no income limit as to how, as to who can contribute to this or not.
Manasa Nadig, EA (08:27.456)
Okay, that makes sense, but let's stay here for a little bit, you know, because I am based in the Metro Detroit area. You know, I have a lot of people who ask me these questions working for the big car companies here, right? So now let's say you did not have after-tax dollars in a 401k or
Manasa Nadig, EA (08:52.02)
that sort of an employer plan. Let's say you were actually looking at the balances in your traditional 401k, so to speak, and your employers allowed you to take that and put it into the Roth 401k. Would that be considered a mega backdoor Roth conversion? And would that be taxable event?
Jane Mepham, CFP® (09:11.403)
Okay?
Jane Mepham, CFP® (09:19.864)
So with the 401k, you have two options, right? You have what's called the Roth 401k and you have the pre-tax 401k. So let's go back to John. Let's assume his company offers the 401k and as part of that, they say you can do it pre-tax or you can do it after tax.
So John has the option of saying out of my four whatever K income, I want to reduce my taxable income for this year, in which case he'll just go the traditional 401k rough. So that's one. On the other hand, he may say, I'm not too concerned about reducing my taxable income this year. So I'm going to take up the option of the 401k rough contribution, right?
In which case he's going to be taxed first and then he can put in his contribution into the Roth 401k. Now these two have nothing to do with the Mega Back Door Roth. This is another option on top of all these other retirement options. Does that make sense?
Manasa Nadig, EA (10:37.93)
So what you're saying is, one, the employer should have these options, first of all, for them to be able to do this. And then secondly, when they are making these different contributions, they have to take into account what their cash flow is going to be for the year. And definitely, when maybe it's not
Jane Mepham, CFP® (10:45.002)
Yes, yes absolutely.
Manasa Nadig, EA (11:05.954)
That’s a big deal for those who are in the high income bracket to think about cash flow. But if you are not, then that would be an important thing. Now, one more question. Yeah.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (11:17.568)
And actually, let me, let me, sorry, let me add one more thing because of you're talking about the cash flow. So think about the money that's going into the after tax account, which becomes the mega back door Roth This is money you would probably, if you didn't have that option, like for the people who come to me and they don't have that option and they want to save more, we end up putting it into a taxable account. Right. So.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (11:45.718)
The thing to keep in mind as far as your cashflow, can't be money that you need because there's another little IRS thing that says with the mega back door Roth money, you can all take it for at least five years. So you kind of have to keep that in mind. So anybody that's looking to do the mega back door Roth, which again, we assuming the company's offering, they need to know that they can't really touch this money.
Manasa Nadig, EA (12:01.784)
Yes.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (12:15.042)
For at least five years and the assumption we making is this is money you're probably saving for retirement. Does that answer the question though? Okay, okay, cool.
Manasa Nadig, EA (12:23.204)
Yes, yes, it does. So one last question on this one, though. So when you have multiple 401ks, such as the pre-tax and the post-tax, or the traditional and the Roth 401ks, when you have these, what are the limits on how much money you can totally put into these 401k contributions in a year?
Manasa Nadig, EA (12:52.029)
And can you also do a Roth IRA contribution outside of this.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (12:58.456)
That's a good question. So how much you can put into both the pre-tax and the Roth 401k? I think they say it's about 23,500. So the pre-tax, whether it's pre-tax or whether it's already been taxed, which is the Roth, it's up to 23,500. That's one. With a mega backdoor Roth,
I was looking, was doing the math the other day. I don't remember the exact numbers, but I know in total you can go up to 70 K. So you can do the math, which is something like, like I said, up to 70 K take 70 K minus the 23, 500 that you already contributed and then minus what your employer is going to match you. I'm going to assume your employer is kind of generous. So let's assume if those two numbers,
add up to something like 30 K, then you can put in 70 minus 30 close to 40 K into this account. Now here's the beauty of this whole thing. These are still considered employment retirement accounts. If you qualify, actually in this case, we know you don't, you can still do a Roth in this case, a backdoor Roth outside of the 401 outside of the
company's retirement plan. So does that make sense? Okay, cool.
Manasa Nadig, EA (14:25.186)
Yes, yes. yes. So coming down to this and knowing like we're talking here about a lot of money, cashflow and all that, you know, when people, there are some times people will come to you, they've already sort of DIY this backdoor Roth themselves. But not to go too much into detail because I always tell people not to.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (14:35.768)
Sure.
Manasa Nadig, EA (14:54.596)
and to work with a financial planner that they have, or they want to make a back door Roth conversion or an IRA contribution. But very high level, Jane, would you be able to highlight like what are the three important things to remember if you wanted to execute a back door Roth IRA?
Jane Mepham, CFP® (15:18.858)
Okay, this is great. So I like to describe this as a two-step process, assuming no complications. And we'll talk about the big complication that comes in. essentially we know you don't meet the income limits, which is fine. So at a very high level, you'd go ahead and open a traditional IRA, right? And then you make a non-deductible
after-tax dollars contribution to the traditional IRA that you just opened. And then ideally you wait a while, like, so the separation of transactions, don't invest the money yet. And then at some point come back and do a Roth conversion. So the money goes from the IRA, the traditional IRA into the Roth IRA. And then at that
point you can actually start doing the investment. Now, when it comes to these contributions and conversions, the thing I always say to people is do not mix these monies with other, let's say IRAs or other accounts you may have had. The cleanest way of doing this is open a brand new empty traditional IRA and a brand new empty
Roth IRA, although I think with the Roth, can use an existing Roth since the money is coming in, but definitely open a clean traditional IRA. It kind of just use that as this is my tool for doing the conversion. So that part is really, really key and really important. The part that I now see people missing and messing up a ton, which is sad actually to say,
There's this thing called the pro rata rule. So what happens is IRS looks at all your IRA account outside of the retirement account. And so when you do the conversion, IRS looks at all these and says, wait a minute.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (17:39.18)
you already have another traditional IRA that we see over there, and you have another traditional IRA that we see over here. So what we're going to do, and I'll give you a specific example to show you how the math works. We're going to tax you on all these IRAs. So the whole event ends up being not tax free. So let me walk you through an example and you see what I mean. So let's go back to John. So,
John, we know he's got great income.
Manasa Nadig, EA (18:10.262)
No, I'll let you, I'll let you give the example, but I have a quick question once you have. Yeah.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (18:14.432)
Okay. Do you want me to talk about the example or do you want to ask the question first?
Manasa Nadig, EA (18:19.712)
No, no, no, I'll wait for you to finish with the example, Jane. Sorry.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (18:23.328)
Okay, no, that's okay. okay. John has a traditional IRA. Let's say he had retired. He had switched jobs at some point and he did the rollover because he wanted to take the IRA with him, the money with him, right? Remember these whole pro rata aggregation rule does not apply to 401k. So here's John, he's got this old IRA somewhere. Now,
Let's say he's already over 50. So we know he's able to contribute 8K, not seven to do the backdoor Roth, right? Yes, with a catch up. There's a catch up if you're over 50. Now remember this 8K has already been taxed, right? So this would be a non-deductible IRA. Now,
Manasa Nadig, EA (19:03.678)
So with the Catch-up yeah.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (19:20.63)
let's assume he has this old IRA and to make the math easy, let's assume his pre-tax IRA is 92K. So he then brings the 8K. So in total, he now has a 100K IRAs outside, right? Now, if he goes ahead and does the conversion of the 8K,
This is how the tax bill is going to look like. One, think of the non-deductible portion, which is the 8K, divide by the total IRA amount, which is now 100K, right? And that portion is what's going to be the non-taxable piece.
The second part of the equation looks like this. Think amount, to be converted. So the 8K times the non-taxable percentage that we just calculated above. And that's the amount of after-tax funds to be converted to the Roth. So using this example, remember it's 8K, right? So 8%, and hope I'm keeping the numbers right, of the 100,000K is non-taxable.
So the converted amount is going to come from 92 % of the pre-tax funds and only 8 % from the 8K contribution. And so it means he's going to be paying taxes on 92 % of this, which is 73.60 instead of not being able to pay taxes. So far so good.
PS: This was recorded in two pieces, so the timing goes back
Manasa Nadig, EA (00:04.186)
So Jane, that was a great example, but here's my question. Is there anything else that they need to be concerned about the 73.60
Jane Mepham, CFP® (00:14.75)
Yeah, because it now means, think about it, the 73.60 of the original after tax contributions is still mixed with the original pre-tax amount, which makes future accounting and contributions even more complicated in the future, especially if we plan to keep doing this.
And so one way to try and avoid this is actually making sure that you don't have any pre-tax IRAs before you attempt the conversion.
And so in John's case, the 92k he has in the IRA, I would have him roll it out to hopefully his, do a rollover to his 401k and just make sure by December 31st, he has no IRAs anywhere.
Apart from all the 401k. Does that make sense? Okay, okay.
Manasa Nadig, EA (01:15.224)
Yes, yes. So a lot of things to consider here, right? One is that you don't have a pre-tax IRA at all before you make a backdoor Roth IRA, or before you even think of making a backdoor Roth IRA. And secondly is to know what these IRAs are that go into this pro rata bucket. So,
Manasa Nadig, EA (01:43.44)
When we're talking about that, would you be able to go into a little bit about, OK, what goes into this bucket? When we are saying IRAs, are these just the traditional IRAs that he has made? Or will this also include the rollovers maybe that this person has from maybe a previous 401k that he has now rolled it over into this? Yeah.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (02:09.448)
Yeah, good question. So this aggregation rule applies to all IRAs that you have. So let's assume to your point, like the example we used at the beginning, he had worked at another job, he had a 401k and he did the roll over into an IRA. That will apply if he has a SEP IRA. We've talked about SEPs in a previous episode. If he has a simple IRA.
So basically, any IRAs apply to this bucket. And again, the easiest way I explain this to clients is make sure if we're to do this, let's say like for this year by December 31st, all your outside IRAs need to be completely empty.
Otherwise we're going to fall into that whole aggregation pro rata rule, which is real pain and I know a lot of CPAs don't even want to have to deal with it.
Manasa Nadig, EA (03:10.458)
I know. And this is where the connection between your financial advisor and your tax advisor keeps coming back and we bring it up over and over again. But another thing also, Jane, is maybe we should talk a little bit about this is the timing aspect of making these decisions about backdoor Roth.
right? Whether it is a mega backdoor conversion contribution or a backdoor Roth contribution is when does this make sense to you? know, by that
Jane Mepham, CFP® (03:50.798)
You mean like the timing of the year or?
Manasa Nadig, EA (03:54.416)
One is that, yes, the timing of the year itself, but then also whether, you know, how much money you have in this bucket, which will push you into the pro rata rule, but also the fact that, you know, now you have money that you're adding into your taxable income possibly when making these conversions, especially with the mega backdoor is what I'm talking about. Yeah.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (04:22.898)
So, right, so the good thing is, like I said, with the mega backdoor Roth, because this is an after-tax contribution, you don't have to worry about taxes as long as you're able to do the conversion. So basically, you now have a giant pile of Roth money growing, right? If we take care of the pro rata rule, the aggregation rule, which is why I say the timing, the date that's critical is December 31st, you don't have to worry about
Manasa Nadig, EA (04:41.039)
Yeah.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (04:52.616)
taxes impacting whatever you're doing. But in terms of when you can contribute, remember to be able to do the mega backdoor Roth, you need to max out your retirement plan. So let's say the $23, 500. So what, and the money by the way, comes out of your paycheck. So it's not something you can go back and do retroactively.
So what I'll say is if we're planning on maxing out your retirement account and doing the mega backdoor rock, then we can't be putting in $100 at the beginning of the year. Ideally, you spread it out throughout the year. So you need to do a bigger chunk. And we can do the math. That's pretty easy to do to ensure that you hit the numbers by the end of the year. Now, as far as the backdoor roth outside of work, we just need to finish the contribution.
by the tax deadline.
So in 2025, you can contribute money to your non-deductible, your traditional IRA up until next year, April 15th, right? The conversion can happen later, but the contribution needs to happen before April 15th. But again, the key thing is you cannot have any IRAs outside of work
Jane Mepham, CFP® (06:18.6)
by December 31st, otherwise we are going to run into these aggregation rules. And so in cases where we're not able to take that IRA money out, my suggestion at that point is probably hold off until the following year, because you really don't want to get into that whole mess calculation kind of thing. Does that answer your question? Okay. Okay. Okay.
Manasa Nadig, EA (06:40.888)
Yes, yes. I guess also then, Jane, maybe we should clarify that in order to not have the pro rata rule applied to you, if you decide to first convert your pre-tax IRAs to Roth IRAs, then that is something that you have to work with the financial planner.
Manasa Nadig, EA (07:10.896)
And if somebody came to you with that and asked you for options, what would you tell them as far as planning that? And I know it would be very unique to each individual, right?
Jane Mepham, CFP® (07:28.056)
Yeah, but the thing I say because I know clients sometimes tend to procrastinate things happen. What I say is let's not attempt this backdoor Roth conversion until I know for sure that all your IRAs are empty. And the reason I'm saying that, cause remember we have until April 15th to do the contribution and to do, and we can do the conversion anytime after. So,
Jane Mepham, CFP® (07:57.946)
Let's not risk it by, because sometimes we never know how long the rollover is going to take. So let's not risk getting into that mess. And so my advice to them is obviously, me know what are the IRS that you have. Let's figure out how to empty them then. And only then can we talk about doing the backdoor rock conversion. yeah.
Manasa Nadig, EA (08:24.536)
Yeah, no, that was pretty intensive. We really pulled that apart, I think. That's good, because these are common pitfalls and we do need to talk about how to avoid them as far as backdoor Roth now, let's say, and this happens to me from time to time, somebody will come to me and say, hey, I want to make a backdoor Roth because they don't, you know, they can, they're not eligible for any other way of getting money in there, but they have forgotten or they don't, they have not kept track of previous IRA contributions or previous Roth IRA contributions that they may have made.
And at that time, I do tell them that this is something that they would have to go and track back and get all the basis of all these contributions that they have made. And that's when it's really important to make sure that they have filed that form 8606 when making these contributions so that at least you have one way of getting back into it.
Manasa Nadig, EA (09:52.676)
go back 10 years to the IRS's portal and grab your transcripts for the past 10 years, but that's all you can go to and not the ones before that. So another thing, just wanted to put that out there. moving on though, in a cross border context, and we keep coming back to this because this is our audience.
Now, in a cross border context, what is the backdoor Roth Kind of would that be applicable to people who may want to move out of the US sometime down or are not able to stay on?
Jane Mepham, CFP® (10:46.844)
Yeah, so I've seen a couple cases where somebody will come in and say, I have the option of the Mega Backdoor a Roth. And I'm like, great, let's investigate that. But for us to really truly investigate whether this makes sense for you or not, I need to understand your immigration status now. I need to understand, or at least have an idea of where you're going to be when you retire.
Basically, I want to understand where you're going to be when you start taking money out of the Roth or the mega backdoor Roth, money out. And so what happens is we talk a lot about tax treaties. A lot of tax treaties do not recognize the tax advantage option or the tax advantage status of the Roth account.
And partly because I think we said this in another episode, the Roth account only came into existence around '98, I think, which is way after Manasa and I had actually come to the US.
So it's not included in a lot of these tax treaties. So the thing, first of all, I want people to understand is the Roth account or versions of Roth account is a US IRS tax code option has nothing to do with the other country. So that's the first thing I want them to understand. With other retirement accounts, let's say like a 401k or a traditional IRA, those can sort of come into how other countries define pensions. And as soon as you see pensions in other countries, they sort of kind of get it. This is money you're going to get after a while. And we know the money is going to be taxed, that kind of thing. So,
If you're planning for one on retiring in a country where your country, and there's only like maybe six or seven countries, doesn't recognize the tax status of the Roth, what's going to happen is the minute you leave the U.S., right, and you start filing taxes in the other country, one, the other country is going to start taxing you on this Roth account because to them, it's justva foreign taxable account.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (13:09.2)
That's one. And also by the time you come to take money out, they are going to tax you, which means you kind of lose all the tax benefits that you'd accrued. Okay. When you put money into it. So that's the one thing I always say, let's consider the country that you're going to be retiring to.
We're then going to dig into the tax treaty and Manasa and I love to do that to see if the account is mentioned in any way, or form. If that's the case, then I'll be like, okay, don't worry about it. I know we have the option, but the taxable account is still a good option for you. You don't always have to have the account. Does that answer the question?
Manasa Nadig, EA (13:56.832)
Absolutely, it does. You know, well, the backdoor Roth IRA could be a great option for investments, but it will not be a great option for everybody in the cross border context, right? Yeah, yeah. And also, like you just mentioned about treaties, it's important to see if any one of these have been up.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (14:16.431)
Exactly, yes, yes.
Manasa Nadig, EA (14:25.572)
Data to include the Roth I think that maybe there are governments now that are kind of doing that, but not that we have seen many so far. So that was that.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (14:38.112)
I think one of the few, I was going to say one of the few that kind of calls it out is the UK tax treaty does call out the Roth account. The Canadian tax treaty also allows the Roth account, but I actually worked with a client the other day that was moving to Canada. You have to make a special election for it to be allowed to continue being able to have it as a Roth.
Manasa Nadig, EA (14:48.888)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jane Mepham, CFP® (15:06.042)
I think the key thing is let's talk, let's figure out where you're going to be. And then we can figure out if it makes sense or not, which is where we kind of keep going back to it may be good, but it may not be good for everybody. so financial advice, as we keep saying, is really needs to be customized. It has to make sense for your situation. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Manasa Nadig, EA (15:32.136)
for sure. And there are very specific windows as well that people need to remember to your point earlier about the Canadian tax treaty. There's a very small time period within which that election needs to be made, I understand. So yes. so do you have anything else to add, Jane? I thought this was a great episode. We had some technical glitches in the middle, which you wouldn't...
Manasa Nadig, EA (16:00.72)
know about Dear Listener, but we made it. And yeah, did you have anything else that you wanted to add, Jane?
Jane Mepham, CFP® (16:07.976)
I think I've answered a lot of questions on this. So what I'm going to say is if people have other questions, send them to us and we're happy to do a part two of this. If they have more questions on the back door, Roth or Roth's account or any retirement account. So yeah, I think that's it. And thank you for asking some of those deep, deep questions, Manasa.
Manasa Nadig, EA (16:32.752)
Yes, I enjoyed being the questioner this time. So yes. And just like Jane said, if you have more questions, definitely please reach out to us. You can go to the website and sign up for a newsletter. We will have your email or just drop us a note and we will try and answer all those questions we get on a future episode.
So thanks for listening. Take care. Bye.